Hidden Value with David Sherry

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All right, Mohamed, welcome to Hidden Value.

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Thank you so much for being here.

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I'd love to start with just a minute or two of kind of your background.

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How did you get where you are today and what are you currently focused on?

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Yeah,

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so I'm an engineer,

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mechanical engineer,

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but I've done a lot of different projects that most engineers don't do.

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For example, I never got an internship in college.

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poor engineering, so I worked odd jobs.

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I worked as a filmmaker for two years and then did business consulting when COVID hit.

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Now I am running a business where I work with founders in deep tech,

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which is usually biotech,

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robotics,

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climate tech,

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energy,

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those really niche applications,

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but have huge impacts,

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and working with them to help explain their ideas more clearly to people.

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The reason for that is my background is also in writing, where I started

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publishing weekly fiction from 2020 to 2023, just on my own.

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Through that, I learned how to tell stories naturally.

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I didn't read any storytelling books or writing.

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I just started publishing and learned as I went.

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So now I'm applying that to tech founders and helping them explain their ideas more clearly.

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I love it.

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I love the,

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how you've taken different varied interests and backgrounds,

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and it sounds like you've combined them together into a pretty interesting niche

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for yourself.

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So now that you've been in this business for a little bit,

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I'd love to explore,

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you know,

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what is kind of this moment that you feel like you're in?

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Usually I kind of describe that as a bit of a tension point.

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Like what's the current kind of challenge or dilemma you feel like you're facing

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with this unique idea that you've been building?

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Yeah.

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So I'd say for me,

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It is just coming to that differentiation point where I do have that mixture of

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that storytelling and engineering focus with it.

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And then it comes out to,

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for a founder,

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one,

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why not just use AI or why not just hire a general copywriter?

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Or why do it at all?

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Because sometimes it's not even on their radar because they're too busy working on

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their main business than to spend time on.

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spend time on getting visibility with that what I may be hearing is that you're

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finding it difficult to communicate the value of this skill set to the people

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you're working with yeah communicate the value and then also along with the method

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I guess like what would make it different than other what's unique about it yes

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because I can say it's fiction but what does that actually mean earlier today there

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was a biotech founder I was in contact with where he told me

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he was making an AI system for his marketing.

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And he asked me like, so what would you add to that?

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Because we were expecting that to cover like 95% of our marketing.

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And my answer to that was that at the moment,

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the way we use LLMs is that AI doesn't have the emotional context for when we use

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words.

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Like for example,

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I was actually writing the response to him and there was an AI checker that came up

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and it said,

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I was using the word like AIs.

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You need to spend more time fidgeting with it.

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But the word fidgeting got underlined.

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So use a simpler word.

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Use the word prompting because it's more accurate.

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But the word prompting and the word fidgeting both have different connotations with it.

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Prompting is more technical.

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It's more technical and focused while fidgeting gives that sense of that you're

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wasting time or it's just not working.

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There's more frustration associated with that word.

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That's what AI is not good at currently,

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unless you have to constantly prompt it and tell it to be aware of that.

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It will not be aware of that on its own.

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It only just spits it out with you.

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And so it's like running into problems like that.

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They're questioned the value.

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Yeah, questioned the value of that.

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And how clear do you feel about your answer to that?

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Do you feel unclear about it?

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Or you feel clear and it's hard to communicate?

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It's clear to me on why the value is.

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I think it's just on that translation.

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Yeah, the translation.

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Okay,

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so I'm wanting to translate the value of what I do and the uniqueness to my target

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audience that I'm serving.

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That's what you're wanting right now,

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and you feel like your business is being held back by that ability.

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Does that sound right?

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Yes.

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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So,

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and I love that you brought up an example of someone you're talking with right now,

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because this is a perfect example,

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right?

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Through these micro moments where this challenge you're feeling is presenting

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itself,

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like in this interaction,

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like somebody questioning,

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you know,

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well,

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why should I do this?

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Or what would you add?

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Or, you know, in a discussion about the finer points about what you're providing,

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And what I wonder is,

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you know,

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help me understand a little bit more of the context of what the people you're

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working with are wanting.

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And I think there's this interesting idea in business that sometimes what people

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sort of say they want and what they buy are slightly different.

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And we might buy certain things based on a little bit more maybe unconscious kind

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of desires,

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right?

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So they say that Starbucks and McDonald's abroad provide familiarity, right?

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And so maybe I want food, but actually I'm really wanting familiarity.

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There's something deeper that I'm actually wanting.

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Got it.

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And so what I'm curious about is what, let's zoom out.

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So, you know, there's kind of details of how language happens.

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What do these founders want?

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At the core,

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they want recognition for their idea because there's a difference between a

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software startup and an AI infrastructure startup.

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For example, that AI infrastructure want to be what I would consider deep tech.

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while the software one would be like the usual Silicon Valley one.

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And the difference,

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what I've noticed is that with the software one,

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a lot of the pathways are quick ROI or quick return or profit through acquisition.

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They get bought by some other larger company.

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But we're talking with founders in that deep tech industry.

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They're a lot more long-term and it's a lot more,

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passion-focused.

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They want to solve the problem because they care about it.

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What I love about what's happening, I think, right now is you're seeing some patterns, right?

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Talk to that guy about it.

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Talk to this person about it.

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You're seeing some connective tissue between the different clients.

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And what we're focusing on is what is it that they're wanting?

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Not what's my background, what's my unique, right?

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That's an I question.

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What we're doing is we're flipping it to them, you, you,

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their desire.

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And so what they're wanting maybe is recognition for this unique idea they're

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bringing to the world that has a deep purpose for them.

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And without going on too much of a tangent,

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there's something a little bit interesting to me here about you wanting to

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communicate your uniqueness

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And them wanting to communicate their uniqueness, right?

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The freelance challenge you're maybe feeling is also the problem they're feeling.

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That's actually very typical that we solve problems that we're having ourselves on some level.

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But what this takes us to is starting there.

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So what I would offer as a place to begin is how can you speak to the problem that

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they're having?

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in a way that they feel like, I totally feel understood, you totally get it.

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That's what you want to hear, right?

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The miscommunication,

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that's not what you want to,

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the defending the value,

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the why should you pick me over,

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that's the conversation you don't really want to be in.

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The conversation that would feel good for them,

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and then I think for you,

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is speak to the problem in a way that they feel like you understand them and said

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it before they even had to,

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right?

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So let me give you a quick example of what I mean by that.

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talking to any of these founders you're speaking to,

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say,

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let me guess,

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there's all these,

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you know,

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B2C AI startups out there that are getting all this flash and recognition because

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they're doing this consumer use cases,

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but you've been doing the deep work of having a deeper purpose to bring forward the

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technology that you are working on.

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I imagine that you want to feel recognized or have the market recognize you for

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this important breakthrough that you're bringing to the world.

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And I imagine that sometimes it's difficult to translate the complexity of the

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problem to your customers,

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to the market.

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That's what I help people do.

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I help you translate that message for a mass audience.

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Like how would they, I'm making this up here, right?

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But how do you think they would hear or respond to that type of messaging?

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A lot of people,

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if they're in that stage and they're feeling that immediately,

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they would immediately get it.

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And they like poking holes, right?

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Because that's the type of founder they are.

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So I think they would agree, but they would also like question more.

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Right.

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And the question is great.

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So what question, let's play it out.

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What question would they ask there?

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Cause this is what I think you're working to build strong communication around.

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So, and I love the question.

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So let's, let's bring it up.

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What would they say back after you present?

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Well, what you said earlier is actually what I sent to that biotech founder who replied then.

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And said.

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That we're already building this AI marketing system internally.

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That,

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we think we'll cover 95% of what we need.

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So how would you add to that?

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Right, interesting question is what is that 5% that's not being covered?

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And it's important to know what are people trying already?

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So now we have a good example of this is a solution that some of your customers are trying.

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And this is very helpful because you can also say,

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let me guess,

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you're probably thinking that AI can handle all the marketing copy for you.

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Mm-hmm.

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let me share with you what I think that tends to miss.

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And this is where your expertise can come in.

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So you could definitely expect that question,

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I think is sort of up to you to have a good answer to that.

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So why is an AI marketing system not the right answer?

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What do you know that this person doesn't know, which is why they're pursuing that strategy?

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And how would you sort of concisely say that?

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Yeah, so my response was kind of separate of what you said.

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mentioned,

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pointed out that basically that 5% of what the AI wouldn't cover,

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that you have that emotional resonance.

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But the key part is that the AI,

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it would word vomit what you have as a company,

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but it can't really reproduce that founder's experience,

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like that founder's journey of going from that initial spark to where they got to

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now.

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Yes.

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So the AI can market the company.

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I market the founder.

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And actually it's the founder's story that breaks through more than the company's

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story or something to that effect.

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Yeah, because people follow people.

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They don't really follow companies as much.

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The reason we have those brands is because they have that story set in.

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And so you're following that.

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I got you.

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So really they're telling you we have a marketing focus and an AI system that's

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going to help us market the company.

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And you're saying, no, no, I don't care about how you're marketing the company.

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This is a process for marketing the founder.

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What's your strategy and process for marketing the founder?

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Because what I've seen is that's more effective.

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Right.

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Because from my experience when I've marketed other founders,

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the clients start coming to them so they don't have to worry about writing more

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grant proposals or

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doing like ads or things like that, people start finding them because of that story.

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Yeah.

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And so you've got good experience and credentials and like history of this to show

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why marketing the founder is more important than marketing the company through that

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mechanism.

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And, you know, I think it's, I think it's good to say, okay, that's awesome.

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I'm happy you've got the company marketing happening,

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but I'm wondering how you're going to approach this other aspect.

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It's something completely different.

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That's actually not what I do.

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And I don't think you,

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I know you get this,

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but to say that explicitly,

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I don't think you wanna be in that,

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it doesn't feel good,

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right,

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to be in that position of,

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tell me why you're gonna help us with the last 5%.

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That conversation can't happen.

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You can't allow yourself to be in that context at all because that's not actually what you do.

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And so you're educating by kind of expanding their awareness

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to say there's company marketing and then there's founder-led marketing or whatever

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you want to describe it.

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Here are some case studies about how I've driven results through the founder story

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and my process for doing that.

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So I think if you meet in that context, there'll be resistance.

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And you've been looking for what's my unique angle.

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I would shift out of that conversation entirely.

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And some people won't get that.

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Some people won't get that.

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Not every customer right is for you, but it's something you can own.

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right I guess how does this sound does this feel like it's what you're already

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doing is staying more firm in this category that you're owning and avoiding that

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meeting them in that dialogue that you can't win yeah it's a bit of both so it's

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just getting more because I've been since I've been doing this for only three years

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it's gotten a bit unconscious but having you say that reframe of getting out of

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that instead of saying like yeah we already have our company marketing done I need

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to instead of

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staying within their frame of reference of just company marketing,

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reframe it to saying,

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that's great,

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but what I actually do is with you specifically,

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the founder,

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because having your story amplifies your company marketing even more.

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And you don't even need to prove it.

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You can ask...

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okay, that's great.

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You've got all this company marketing going on.

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How is the founder showing up across social media, sharing their story?

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Tell me about that.

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Let them fill you in on where they are because if they're nowhere with that,

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then they've got opportunity.

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If they're doing tons already, then maybe they've got, it's less of a fit for you as a client.

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So I would explore by asking.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Oftentimes the way I do outreach is just getting to that part of like asking people

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Because like the overall,

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the way it approaches like a more umbrella and then dig down where,

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hey,

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when you're explaining your technology or your breakthrough to people,

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are you finding that you're having to constantly explain why yours is important

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compared to someone else's?

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Because like everyone has that translation gap.

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And then if they say yes or if they give like some variation of an answer,

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then we can dig deeper into like,

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well,

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how are you specifically doing this?

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as a founder rather than as just a company entirely.

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Yeah, what's the founder marketing strategy at your company right now?

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I hear that you've got this whole marketing AI.

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I'm curious about that.

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Again, I'm finding something interesting about your own sort of journey

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and what the founders are facing.

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Like there's something of like, how do I tell my story?

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How do they tell their story?

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How do I market?

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You know,

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so there's something in that too that I think is kind of cool for your own unlock

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where as you learn to use and tell the uniqueness of your own story in a way that

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lands clients,

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you'll also have that internal experience to help your customers through,

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right?

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They're going to run into those same roadblocks.

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So that brings me to how do you feel like you've

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been showing up in that way you know for yourself telling your story your journey

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how much are you including that in your own outreach or marketing or yeah for that

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i don't think i've been doing a good job with that it's been a bit of a mix where

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um where i share my own personal journey but then also

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I would share just like my own thoughts on this technology.

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Like for example, Boston Dynamics Robotics, like the dancing robots basically that they had.

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And then I would kind of break down their positioning and like as a company and why

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it was important to change that perspective and then link that to what I do.

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So in that,

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in my own personal marketing,

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I'm still figuring out like how to convey that uniqueness because one aspect that I

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really,

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that I've been trying to figure out how to, yeah, that journey.

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And one aspect I've been trying to figure out was just that fiction focus because I

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know that there's something there that I'm not seeing yet with that mixture,

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like beyond just like the usual fiction for this group of people.

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So the question is maybe like,

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how do I use fiction,

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my fiction background in my own sharing of my journey that creates interest or

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proof points for the customers that I serve?

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You're still discovering what that actually looks like for yourself.

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Yeah, I'm making, I'm discovering and trying things out along the way to see what clicks.

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Now with,

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I guess now with engagement with other people,

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like more internally with me where I can tell,

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like,

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there's something not right with this one.

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Yeah, yeah.

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So I think that's just something that you're not,

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you don't need to incorporate as much quite yet,

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because you're still figuring out what that is,

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right?

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If you try to incorporate it before you feel clear,

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then this like poking holes type of experience maybe that you're feeling sometimes.

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you know, can continue.

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But when it clicks and it gets really clear for you and you sort of see,

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oh,

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this is how I'm using this lens to promote my own personal journey,

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which leads to the business that I'm wanting,

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then you'll have a really strong kind of foundation to stand on when you speak

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about it.

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So it's sort of how might I, how might I let that be a development process and an exploration.

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But there's some fractal aspect of what we're talking about here,

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right,

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of myself and to others.

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And I think that's a cool opportunity.

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yeah it's something worth exploring because it's been a lot of unconscious

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uncovering where since i've been writing fiction for almost six years now it's been

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so ingrained so that it's just now a lens that i need to view it from the other way

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it's like looking at the that analogy that people use of looking at the sticker for

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a bottle but you're inside the bottle let's land that what does that mean for what

(00:18:32):
you want to do or explore next

(00:18:36):
What does that analogy mean or that?

(00:18:38):
Yeah, what is that sentiment you just shared?

(00:18:40):
What does that mean for what you might explore next?

(00:18:42):
What does that mean that you might do, change, explore?

(00:18:45):
I would say for me, it would be trying things out more on my own.

(00:18:51):
So rather than looking up how other people are doing it,

(00:18:56):
Definitely.

(00:18:56):
To find my own path.

(00:18:57):
So that's what I've been doing a bit more recently now.

(00:19:00):
Let me just try this out and see what comes out of it.

(00:19:05):
And see what signals appear.

(00:19:06):
And that'll help you explain some of how it's worked for you to relate to the

(00:19:12):
clients you're working with.

(00:19:14):
Yes.

(00:19:14):
One idea I'm testing right now is sharing basically a fictional story on LinkedIn.

(00:19:22):
And then at the end saying,

(00:19:24):
I just got you to believe that this was happening with only like a hundred words.

(00:19:28):
Now take that and you can replace like these details and with your idea.

(00:19:33):
And that's the impact we're aiming for here.

(00:19:35):
And just seeing how that resonates with people and with me as I write it in that style.

(00:19:41):
Do you feel like,

(00:19:42):
how much do you feel it's about the company marketing versus the founder marketing?

(00:19:47):
Because that was kind of like different frames.

(00:19:51):
What side of the spectrum do you feel like you're sitting on right now in terms of

(00:19:55):
what you're leaning into?

(00:19:57):
I'm leaning into more of the founder-led marketing.

(00:20:02):
And the reason being is because that's really where you get more

(00:20:07):
You still get both sides of the company side because the founder is the one who

(00:20:12):
made it and that company is that extension of their personality,

(00:20:16):
their ethos.

(00:20:18):
So given the examples,

(00:20:19):
the few you were thinking of,

(00:20:20):
those three,

(00:20:21):
this founder,

(00:20:21):
that founder,

(00:20:23):
what would that mean for your approach now and how you communicate with them?

(00:20:27):
I would say focusing a lot more on what they themselves find different about the

(00:20:34):
industry because every company that gets

(00:20:38):
started is because they themselves believe that there should be something different

(00:20:42):
about this industry.

(00:20:43):
You don't

(00:20:44):
You don't start a company because you're going to do the same thing someone else is

(00:20:47):
doing,

(00:20:48):
right?

(00:20:48):
Yeah.

(00:20:49):
This is a great line of thinking, right?

(00:20:50):
What you're saying right now,

(00:20:51):
and I don't mean to cut you off,

(00:20:52):
I'm sorry,

(00:20:52):
but what you're saying is this is like a pitch here that I'm hearing.

(00:20:58):
Like, you didn't start this business because you wanted to do what everyone else is doing.

(00:21:02):
Like, let me help you tell that story, that version, that vision of what you see.

(00:21:07):
Right.

(00:21:07):
And once people, when you start sharing that and other people start

(00:21:11):
seeing that.

(00:21:12):
You'll find people who align with that vision on their own.

(00:21:15):
Employees want to join.

(00:21:18):
Investors want to join.

(00:21:21):
Customers who you know in your network want to join.

(00:21:23):
That's even a bigger context now than a marketing machine AI just for signups or something.

(00:21:30):
It's bigger than that.

(00:21:31):
It's much bigger than that.

(00:21:34):
I'm not saying that marketing machine AI doesn't have its purpose.

(00:21:37):
It does, but this focus on specifically founders is

(00:21:42):
that amplification of that.

(00:21:44):
It's like that marketing machine AI won't work as well.

(00:21:47):
Bingo.

(00:21:47):
How do you feel saying what you just said?

(00:21:50):
I feel way more excited and clear.

(00:21:52):
Personally, how are you feeling?

(00:21:53):
How does that last a little bit?

(00:21:55):
How did that feel for you?

(00:21:57):
feels a lot better and I'm glad this is being recorded so I can go back to this and

(00:22:01):
go back to this and put it down on paper.

(00:22:05):
The feeling is part of it though, right?

(00:22:08):
As well.

(00:22:08):
That's why I'm curious how that felt to do because part of what you were talking

(00:22:11):
about earlier is this,

(00:22:13):
this feeling just does not feel good when it's like,

(00:22:15):
well,

(00:22:16):
you know,

(00:22:16):
here's this 95% we're doing.

(00:22:18):
Why are you the five?

(00:22:18):
Like, it's just not, what I want to speak to is that the, you've got expertise.

(00:22:27):
Right.

(00:22:28):
And so part of this feeling as well,

(00:22:30):
I think when you're speaking is like,

(00:22:31):
this is kind of you as the expert with a point of view.

(00:22:35):
And it's just like clear.

(00:22:36):
It's like, yeah, this is like, this is how I see it.

(00:22:40):
Right.

(00:22:40):
Yeah.

(00:22:40):
And it's just clarifying that point of view.

(00:22:44):
So it's clear for them when they hear it.

(00:22:47):
Yeah.

(00:22:47):
I think that will be clear for, I mean, that, that's what I said again, just my reaction.

(00:22:51):
I think it's,

(00:22:52):
I think we can go to next steps here,

(00:22:53):
you know,

(00:22:54):
and talk about what you might do,

(00:22:56):
but that's what you could test.

(00:22:57):
Right.

(00:22:57):
So let's,

(00:22:58):
let's land on kind of what,

(00:23:00):
what might you like,

(00:23:01):
what are some actionable kind of next steps you might,

(00:23:03):
you might take from here.

(00:23:04):
Yeah.

(00:23:05):
Given this conversation.

(00:23:07):
Um,

(00:23:09):
well,

(00:23:09):
the one obvious one is I'm still in contact with that,

(00:23:11):
with that founder who said he's doing the 95% marketing for his company.

(00:23:16):
Um,

(00:23:17):
And so going back to that and asking him questions on just,

(00:23:21):
great,

(00:23:22):
so what is,

(00:23:22):
it's great that you have the company,

(00:23:24):
but do you have anything for yourself as the leader of the ship that you're

(00:23:31):
driving?

(00:23:32):
And just seeing their answer on that.

(00:23:33):
So just doing more outreach on both the companies that I'm in contact with and just

(00:23:39):
finding others and then asking them questions on what are you doing specifically to

(00:23:43):
talk about your idea rather than behind the wall of the company.

(00:23:47):
I want to throw a quick quote out there, which is like experts expand the problem, right?

(00:23:52):
If they're in their own context,

(00:23:53):
they don't know the field that you know,

(00:23:56):
they're seeing one problem,

(00:23:58):
one solution.

(00:23:59):
You're expanding the scope, right?

(00:24:01):
So having expertise is about expanding the scope of their awareness to see that

(00:24:06):
there's other possibilities,

(00:24:08):
more possibility,

(00:24:09):
greater opportunity than they were even seeing in their narrow view.

(00:24:14):
Right, yeah.

(00:24:15):
It's a nice quote.

(00:24:15):
It's like expanding

(00:24:18):
It's showing them what they don't know, basically.

(00:24:20):
Which you know as an expert,

(00:24:21):
because you spent a ton of time in this,

(00:24:23):
you have proof points for this,

(00:24:24):
like,

(00:24:25):
and the more credibility you can back it up with,

(00:24:26):
which you have,

(00:24:28):
the more that they will hear that,

(00:24:31):
you know,

(00:24:31):
but that is what we do as experts,

(00:24:33):
right?

(00:24:34):
Is we expand.

(00:24:36):
Right.

(00:24:37):
Got it.

(00:24:38):
Yeah.

(00:24:38):
So I think that's where I go down of just leading more with that.

(00:24:43):
founder-led focus in asking questions on what they're already doing in that field

(00:24:46):
and if that even is on their radar.

(00:24:48):
So I think it's that, that next step.

(00:24:50):
And then the other thing is exploring for yourself, how is this showing up for me?

(00:24:55):
How am I telling my own story and journey?

(00:24:58):
How is that helping me do the things that I know fiction can do or a fiction

(00:25:03):
foundation for writing storytelling can do?

(00:25:07):
Because you could also frame it that way,

(00:25:09):
that it's a fiction foundation and that's kind of your IP in a way,

(00:25:13):
right?

(00:25:13):
It's not that it's fiction directly, but it's that understanding that you've developed.

(00:25:18):
Right.

(00:25:18):
Yeah.

(00:25:19):
And I've been exploring that different ways and even having people write their own fiction.

(00:25:25):
Break you out of your shell a little bit and you know, yeah, totally.

(00:25:27):
So,

(00:25:29):
you know,

(00:25:29):
I think a great place to land is just any reflections like I,

(00:25:33):
you know,

(00:25:33):
what,

(00:25:34):
what reflections of any do you have from our conversation?

(00:25:37):
It started with the,

(00:25:38):
with the reframe of getting out of that,

(00:25:42):
you know,

(00:25:42):
that 95% thing that we,

(00:25:43):
that we discussed earlier.

(00:25:44):
And then also explaining that it's,

(00:25:49):
complimentary and it's an amplification of like the usual company marketing that

(00:25:52):
they have being that founder focus which basically creates a beacon for for others

(00:26:00):
to follow and make their lives ironically easier what i've noticed is when i do the

(00:26:07):
founder live marketing with other past clients is that they don't spend as much

(00:26:12):
time on it afterwards towards the end someone went from seven hours a week to like

(00:26:15):
three hours just because i cursed

(00:26:18):
Her story's working so well that it's just people read her old work and want to work with her.

(00:26:25):
That's a great story to tell, right?

(00:26:27):
That I know right now it feels like you don't want to do this because it's going to

(00:26:29):
take a lot of time.

(00:26:30):
And let me tell you about how it actually is less time,

(00:26:33):
you know,

(00:26:33):
over time because it's so effective.

(00:26:35):
Right.

(00:26:36):
Yeah.

(00:26:36):
Because that's one of the biggest fears.

(00:26:38):
I'm like,

(00:26:38):
I don't want to spend time on this because I'm doing those things I'm actually

(00:26:42):
passionate about.

(00:26:42):
I'm like, it's perfectly fine with me.

(00:26:45):
I'd rather you...

(00:26:47):
I agree with you on that.

(00:26:49):
Yeah,

(00:26:49):
let's get this up and running so that it can do the work of recruiting,

(00:26:53):
do the work of selling,

(00:26:55):
you know,

(00:26:55):
getting customers.

(00:26:56):
And then it can be less time, but it's still a little bit of a habit you can keep.

(00:27:01):
Right.

(00:27:02):
Those were the biggest takeaways from that,

(00:27:04):
like that reframe and then changing the conversation of it being complimentary and

(00:27:07):
expanding that scope,

(00:27:09):
as you mentioned.

(00:27:10):
Mm-hmm.

(00:27:11):
Awesome.

(00:27:12):
Thanks so much.

(00:27:14):
Yeah, thanks for having me.

(00:27:15):
Yep.